Really compelling framing of the Abraham story as early wrestling with the Euthyphro dilemma. The idea that Bronze Age texts were engaging these philosophical problems 1500 years before Plato puts a different spin on how we think about moral reasoning across cultures. I've been reading some comparative theology lately, and it's wild how often we assume philospohical sophistication only shows up in certain tradtions when the evidence points elsewhere.
Marcionism seems like the natural development of Paulinism. The real dividing line isn't "OId Testament vs. New Testament" but "Judaism as taught by Jesus vs. Hellenized/Romanized pagan sect founded by Paul with Jesus as transformed divine figurehead rather than original rabbi/Maccabean."
The Pauline sect became what we now know as "mainstream Christianity," which has struggled for 2000 years to semi-reconcile its teachings with those of the Old Testament and Jesus.
Thanks. Not original to me -- I first came across elements of the matter in an interesting conspiracy theory text, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and then went exploring from there.
I'm formally a Paulinist myself -- I belong to a church that considers the epistles, etc. part of "the Bible" -- but I'm also very interested in the history of what happened circa 30AD in Judea and what subsequently got done with those events. I don't mind being a pagan. Among other things, it means that I get to eat pork, mix textiles, and not mutilate my infant childrens' genitalia (Jesus said that not one jot or tittle of the Law would be changed until heaven and earth end; Paul was like "yeah, we can cut back on all that").
That is really interesting and strange. I want to look into this more (thank you).
Speaking of really strange and interesting, have you come across The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name by Brian Muraresku? The idea is that the Last Supper and the disciples might have all been doing psychedelics with their wine, sort of like the Mystery Religions of the Greeks. The book is not without controversy, but it's interesting.
I've heard about The Immortality Key and find the idea interesting, but haven't picked it up yet.
The general idea isn't new. The aforementioned Holy Blood, Holy Grail analyzes Jesus as a Greek Mystery type figure. My late friend Steve Kubby made a strong case in The Politics of Consciousness that the "manna" of Exodus was magic mushrooms and that perhaps its time-dilation effects had something to do with the perception of the desert journey taking 40 years. And John Marc Allegro wrote a whole book arguing that Jesus WAS a psilocybin mushroom (I find that last one rather doubtful).
I was brought up Pentecostal, and until adulthood had the typical mental picture of Jesus' time/place, in which he was a central figure DURING HIS LIFE and that everyone else was just the cast of thousands there to call attention to him.
In reality, there was a lot of stuff going on and Jesus was at most a very minor figure until Constantine agreed that Paul's followers could be an official Roman religion if they returned to monotheism (thus the "trinity" kludge), changed their day of worship to Sunday to comport with the main official state religion, the cult of the sun god Sol Invictus (that's where halos in Christian art came from -- it's the sun god behind every major figure's head), etc.
Great to hear you engaging with religious topics for a change, something I know you usually steer clear of by a wide margin! The epistemic collapse we're experiencing in the 21st century makes it clearer than ever that the religion/non-religion divide isn't doing any good work now (if indeed it ever did). As Mary Midgley put it:
“It turns out that the evils that have infested religion are not confined to it, but are ones that can accompany any successful human institution.”
"Schizophrenia" was not the psychological term I figured to first confront when subscribing to your Substack after a brief visit to your Substack Content site titled "underthrow." I figured Narcissism or TNI for the narcissists index would come up in online search. I recalled reading a Substack I already subscribe to but didn't save that particular piece that referred to TNI or tracing so many human and anti-social maladies to TNI or the narcissistic index. Alas, I could not find it online, likely because TNI was mentioned and addressed in the Substack piece I only partially recall, however did not use 'Narcissist' in the title of either that dispatch or any continuing series that cites and\or addresses social disasters of that malady.
If you have any recall of a Substack that addresses such a "Narcissist Index" or TNI or any abbreviation similar dealing with the "N" word, please send me a link to it via my name here on Substack where I've commented but not posted any regular continuing Substack feature.
I like Origen of Alexandria’s take, which includes reading the bible historically and spiritually, but not necessarily literally. Considering the many different translations out there, and the “whisper down the lane” game, that makes sense.
And he believed in Platonian ideas like the eternal soul comes back to earth to continue learning lessons over and over again, until we learn them, which makes more sense than believing in having only one life and getting condemned for eternity by an all loving God.
Good to see you trying to salvage the bridges between ancient Hebrew traditions/faith and the Western civilization that followed. I attempted roughly the same last week, and it didn't land well with many folks: https://goodneighborbadcitizen.substack.com/p/defending-judeo-christian-despite
Really compelling framing of the Abraham story as early wrestling with the Euthyphro dilemma. The idea that Bronze Age texts were engaging these philosophical problems 1500 years before Plato puts a different spin on how we think about moral reasoning across cultures. I've been reading some comparative theology lately, and it's wild how often we assume philospohical sophistication only shows up in certain tradtions when the evidence points elsewhere.
Marcionism seems like the natural development of Paulinism. The real dividing line isn't "OId Testament vs. New Testament" but "Judaism as taught by Jesus vs. Hellenized/Romanized pagan sect founded by Paul with Jesus as transformed divine figurehead rather than original rabbi/Maccabean."
The Pauline sect became what we now know as "mainstream Christianity," which has struggled for 2000 years to semi-reconcile its teachings with those of the Old Testament and Jesus.
Oooh, this is an interesting take.
Thanks. Not original to me -- I first came across elements of the matter in an interesting conspiracy theory text, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and then went exploring from there.
I'm formally a Paulinist myself -- I belong to a church that considers the epistles, etc. part of "the Bible" -- but I'm also very interested in the history of what happened circa 30AD in Judea and what subsequently got done with those events. I don't mind being a pagan. Among other things, it means that I get to eat pork, mix textiles, and not mutilate my infant childrens' genitalia (Jesus said that not one jot or tittle of the Law would be changed until heaven and earth end; Paul was like "yeah, we can cut back on all that").
That is really interesting and strange. I want to look into this more (thank you).
Speaking of really strange and interesting, have you come across The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name by Brian Muraresku? The idea is that the Last Supper and the disciples might have all been doing psychedelics with their wine, sort of like the Mystery Religions of the Greeks. The book is not without controversy, but it's interesting.
I've heard about The Immortality Key and find the idea interesting, but haven't picked it up yet.
The general idea isn't new. The aforementioned Holy Blood, Holy Grail analyzes Jesus as a Greek Mystery type figure. My late friend Steve Kubby made a strong case in The Politics of Consciousness that the "manna" of Exodus was magic mushrooms and that perhaps its time-dilation effects had something to do with the perception of the desert journey taking 40 years. And John Marc Allegro wrote a whole book arguing that Jesus WAS a psilocybin mushroom (I find that last one rather doubtful).
I was brought up Pentecostal, and until adulthood had the typical mental picture of Jesus' time/place, in which he was a central figure DURING HIS LIFE and that everyone else was just the cast of thousands there to call attention to him.
In reality, there was a lot of stuff going on and Jesus was at most a very minor figure until Constantine agreed that Paul's followers could be an official Roman religion if they returned to monotheism (thus the "trinity" kludge), changed their day of worship to Sunday to comport with the main official state religion, the cult of the sun god Sol Invictus (that's where halos in Christian art came from -- it's the sun god behind every major figure's head), etc.
Hey Max,
Great to hear you engaging with religious topics for a change, something I know you usually steer clear of by a wide margin! The epistemic collapse we're experiencing in the 21st century makes it clearer than ever that the religion/non-religion divide isn't doing any good work now (if indeed it ever did). As Mary Midgley put it:
“It turns out that the evils that have infested religion are not confined to it, but are ones that can accompany any successful human institution.”
Happy Winter Festival of your choice!
Chris.
Amen to that!
BTW, I don't steer clear of religious topics, I just explore them a lot more over at GreyRobes.org
Oh, thanks for letting me know!
"Schizophrenia" was not the psychological term I figured to first confront when subscribing to your Substack after a brief visit to your Substack Content site titled "underthrow." I figured Narcissism or TNI for the narcissists index would come up in online search. I recalled reading a Substack I already subscribe to but didn't save that particular piece that referred to TNI or tracing so many human and anti-social maladies to TNI or the narcissistic index. Alas, I could not find it online, likely because TNI was mentioned and addressed in the Substack piece I only partially recall, however did not use 'Narcissist' in the title of either that dispatch or any continuing series that cites and\or addresses social disasters of that malady.
If you have any recall of a Substack that addresses such a "Narcissist Index" or TNI or any abbreviation similar dealing with the "N" word, please send me a link to it via my name here on Substack where I've commented but not posted any regular continuing Substack feature.
Healthy & balanced New Years to all,
Tio Mitchito
Mitch Ritter\Paradigm Sifters, Code Shifters, PsalmSong Chasers
Lay-Low Studios, Ore-Wa (Refuge of A-Tone-ment Seekers)
Media Discussion List\Looksee
did @sotirisrex ever respond?
I like Origen of Alexandria’s take, which includes reading the bible historically and spiritually, but not necessarily literally. Considering the many different translations out there, and the “whisper down the lane” game, that makes sense.
And he believed in Platonian ideas like the eternal soul comes back to earth to continue learning lessons over and over again, until we learn them, which makes more sense than believing in having only one life and getting condemned for eternity by an all loving God.
But he remains relatively unknown, since the church canceled him in the 6th century. Why did the church cancel Origen? https://lizlasorte.substack.com/p/why-was-origen-of-alexandria-canceled?r=76q58
This is really interesting! Thank you for sharing this. // You know, it would be interesting for someone to write a book on *heretics* like this.
Thanks; I think it's interesting too. That would be a good book idea - and all that research might be even more interesting!